Pragmatic ties require collaboration, dialogue and mutual learning

Editor's Note:
Europeans and British people need to be better educated about China, Kerry Brown, professor of Chinese Studies and director of the Lau China Institute at King's College, London, told Global Times reporters Sun Wei and Gu Di in an exclusive interview. "I hope British and Europeans can… at least having more respect for Chinese values, Chinese culture and Chinese identity," Brown said, adding that "we can have a discussion. But it's not about trying to engage with someone else to change them."

GT: How has China Through European Eyes: 800 Years of Cultural and Intellectual Encounter shaped perceptions in the UK and the West? In what ways has it enhanced the Western audience's understanding of Chinese culture?

Brown: It's essential to recognize the extensive historical connections between America, Europe, Britain and China. This book, alongside my upcoming work, delves into the lessons of the past for our present and future.

And we do have a lot of mutual knowledge. I hope this helps people understand our history better, so that we can have a bit more information about where we are today and where are we going to go in the future.

GT: Over the past three decades, you've extensively travelled across China and spearheaded numerous rural studies. With the upcoming release of China Incorporated: The Politics of a World Where China is Number One, you've noted a pervasive apprehension about China's rising prowess. What compelled you to cultivate a dialogue that's "less anxious and more constructive"?

Brown: I've been in and out of China a lot. In the last 30 years, I lived in China for six years, and I've visited China probably 100 times, and I've been to every province and every single autonomous region.

I last went to China at the end of 2019 and had a memorable and very good visit. I learned a great deal and look forward to going back, delving deeper into Chinese issues.
I think that Europeans and British people need to be better educated about China, and its important place with a significant history. I hope these books help people understand why China is important, why it matters and gain a better understanding about our shared history. We have a big shared history.

Especially now, China's economy and its political importance are prominent. There should be greater awareness of what China is and why it's crucial in our cultural and political lives. That's why I have done this. And I think it's really about public information, public education, but for the British people, obviously not for Chinese people. I get the impression that Chinese people are very knowledgeable about their history with Britain and Europe. On the whole, it's quite surprising how little Europeans might know about our shared history. I think one of the reasons for that is it's not very easy to access. This history is spread across many different books in many different places. I've really tried to put it all in one place to make it more accessible and easier to engage with.

GT: In the first chapter of China Incorporated, you assert that China is powerful, has evolved into a maritime force and its values diverge from Western perceptions. Why do you consider these three facets pivotal in today's conversations about China?

Brown: Obviously, China has a different view of the world, and it's not just the Chinese government. Many Chinese people also hold this perspective. They feel culturally distinct. Actually, I think they want to be better understood. Even if we are agreeing or disagreeing, I believe Chinese people want to be better understood, and that makes sense for sure. When you're having a dialogue, you do want to feel that the people are trying to understand you, even if they don't agree.

I got the sense that there wasn't so much said about what China and Europe, and China and Britain, were talking about. The tone of their dialogue and the way they were speaking to each other was not quite right. I sensed there was some sort of issue, and it wasn't just about what they were talking about; it was how they were talking.

I hope British and Europeans can do more about this by at least having more respect for Chinese values, Chinese culture and Chinese identity, even if we don't agree. This is not about agreeing. It's about at least trying to understand and acknowledge that others are different. We have to acknowledge that we can't change that. Then we can have a discussion.

But it's not about trying to engage with someone else to change them, to change who they are. It's really about engaging with someone else about ideas while accepting who they are.

GT: You highlight the undeniable unique intellectual and cultural history of the territories now forming the People's Republic of China. Why do you stress the impracticality of superimposing Western values onto China's distinct cultural backdrop?

Brown: I think China has accepted ideas from the outside world. Marxism, for instance, was originally from Europe, and many ideas of Chinese thinkers have engaged with thinkers from Europe and elsewhere. Economically, Americans and Chinese have accepted many of the ideas of capitalism. But, for Chinese people, there's a unique Chinese view of the world, and I think that always means there's a slight kind of transformation or change. The ideas will enter China, but they'll always be slightly adapted and changed according to national characteristics. That happens everywhere; Britain engages with ideas from America but changes them for the environment here.

So, I think we have to accept that with all of these ideas, there's always going to be adaptation and change. That's just a natural part of making them fit into particular environments where they are used.

In Britain, some people probably have a good understanding, while others don't. To me, it's important for British people to acknowledge when they don't understand. There's a rule that says people with the least knowledge have the strongest opinions. That's because you have to have a lot of knowledge to know you don't know. British people may often feel that they have a substantial amount of knowledge about China. 

GT: As we mark a decade of the China-proposed Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), you've addressed some Western misconceptions in your latest book. In your estimation, what's the initiative's paramount contribution either to global economics or to nations along its path?

Brown: I believe it has raised awareness about the importance of engaging with China and how to approach such engagements thoughtfully. Especially for regions like Central Asia, the Middle East and Asia, there may be compelling reasons for economic engagement with China, whether in terms of investment or access to technology through initiatives like the BRI.

This provides a sort of platform or avenue. However, for Europeans, the connection might seem more distant. It's really about discerning the types of investments and modes of cooperation with China that promote harmony, rather than focusing on areas where there are clear disagreements. The BRI has been a significant learning process. I think it's still evolving, but it has afforded us a decade of getting to know each other better, understanding our respective strengths and weaknesses.

In Britain, for sure, there has been a noticeable shift. There have been more debates, particularly due to issues like those surrounding Hong Kong. The pandemic has, of course, introduced many challenges. The relationship between the US and China has also deteriorated, so there have been several negative factors. However, we are still working toward establishing a practical relationship with China. The government's stance is that it's a pragmatic relationship that requires ongoing collaboration, dialogue and mutual learning.

It's just that there are currently many dissenting voices in Britain, which may be receiving more attention than they warrant. As I often find, those who express the strongest opinions often possess the least understanding. They might continue to echo the same sentiments, only louder. In my view, they're not particularly relevant. 

GT: With two recent prime ministerial transitions in the UK and changing stances on China, are you disheartened by the evident shifts in bilateral ties?

Brown: I believe Britain needs to contemplate more deeply its objectives and what it can realistically achieve with China. While there are clear differences, there are also many common areas, and it's crucial that we acknowledge the need for realism. In Britain, there are often very critical voices regarding China, but our approach is generally pragmatic, but perhaps not as ideologically driven as in, say, Australia. 

Describing the UK's stance as more pragmatic is, I believe, an accurate characterization. As I mentioned, it should be a narrative of equality. The relationship should be one of respect, with a critical eye, but also conducted with courtesy. It should be guided by facts, a constant evaluation of what we have learned about each other in the past, and what we could come to understand in the future. In this way, I envision a dynamic relationship. 

GT: Prominent UK voices, including University College London(UCL)'s Michael Spence, emphasize the valuable contributions of Chinese students in the UK. With the recent cooling of UK-China scientific collaborations, what are your thoughts on these pragmatic perspectives within the cultural and academic spheres? Do you have specific recommendations to fortify UK-China cultural and academic exchanges, particularly given current economic dynamics?

Brown: Michael Spence is right in pointing out that there is a great number of Chinese students in Britain. We need to acknowledge that fact, along with the significant amount of economic and academic collaboration between the two countries. It's wrong to instill fear in people about engaging with China. Some individuals in Britain have made attempts to discourage British academics and others from dealing with China, portraying it as a major problem. However, for many areas, it's not a problem at all.

I think it's something we need to do, as there aren't significant security issues in most areas. There are, of course, some strong opinions in Britain from individuals who, as I often say, have the biggest opinions but know the least. They are trying to portray China as a major security threat.

In my view, security threats exist everywhere. While there are certainly areas where China poses challenges for Britain, and vice versa, we are well aware of those areas. However, there are also numerous areas where we need to collaborate and work together. Therefore, I believe a balanced relationship is better than a paranoid one.

GT: As an academic against the "decoupling" from China, how do you interpret the EU's recent designation of China as a "partner, competitor, and systemic rival," and the ensuing dialogues on "de-risking"?

Brown: I think it's a complex description. It's a rather intricate portrayal. I view it as a partnership. It is indeed a partnership. There will be areas where partnerships come more easily and other areas where it's tougher. However, I believe creating such a nuanced perspective is sometimes not very helpful. Britain, China, Europe and China have numerous trade, investment, technology, climate, environmental and other political relationships. They form a partnership, but it's a complex one.

Whether or not you need to categorize it into these three distinct aspects is more of an internal consideration for Europe. It's not necessarily the way you should frame your policy, so I wouldn't necessarily use that division. However, I understand that in implementing policy, you probably need to differentiate between areas that are more straightforward and those that are more challenging, and take note of that as you implement your policy.

Certainly, Europe's relations with China do influence the British relationship with China. Currently, because Britain is not part of the European Union, it has to take a different approach. I think this can sometimes be challenging. Dealing with China outside the European Union hasn't been easy for Britain because it's a much smaller entity. If we were still part of the European Union, I believe our policy toward China would probably be somewhat easier.

GT: With the UK's recent induction into the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP), and considering past UK policies aligned with China's ascent, where do you foresee UK-China relations heading in the immediate future?

Brown: I don't think it'll ever be an easy relationship, but I think in the end, it will be about trade, investment and whether we are able to do more in those areas. Britain's trading relationship with China is big, but it could be much bigger. 

GT: During in meeting between Chinese top diplomat Wang Yi and Veteran US diplomat Henry Kissinger in Beijing in July, Wang said the US policies toward China require Kissinger-style diplomatic wisdom and Nixon-style political courage. Do you believe the UK requires a diplomatic personality to further bolster UK-China relations? 

Brown: No, I think the world only has space for one Henry Kissinger, and that's quite enough. We have a different relationship with China, and we don't want to mimic the Americans. We can cooperate with both America and China, but we can't replicate them.

I believe that Britons have a lot of knowledge about China, but we need to acquire even more. I hope my books are attempting to provide some insight. For Britain, we already have a narrative about China; we should strive to comprehend that narrative and learn from it.

GT: Despite China's consistent emphasis on its non-adversarial stance toward the US, why do you think there's a persistence of misperception in the West? How can we prevent the West from misconstruing China based on historical precedents of their own powers?

Brown: It won't be easy. It's going to be a tough process, but the reality is that America and China can't afford to have a direct confrontation. If they did, it would be a disaster for everyone.

However, I don't foresee them ever having an easy relationship. The challenge in the next few years will be how to manage it. How can Americans and Chinese work toward a relationship where disaster is avoided? Moreover, what role does the outside world play in this? It's all going to come down to management. I believe, and hope, that we will find a way to navigate it, but it won't be easy. This is going to be a tough period and the next 10 years are going to be a challenging transition.

GT: China's trajectory of development and resurgence is underpinned by its singular historical context. How do you interpret this "Chinese modernization," and what do you identify as its defining characteristics?

Brown: The challenges that China faced in modernizing were enormous. It has been successful in some areas, while in others, it has had to struggle. Chinese modernization has led to where we are today - a China with significant economic, military and political influence in the world. However, it is likely to face difficulties in defining its proper role. What is China? What kind of global role does it truly have? This is not very clear.

At present, some of this ambiguity may be due to the outside world's reluctance to assign China a certain role. Additionally, some of it may stem from China itself being hesitant to take on a more prominent global role.

I believe this is the most significant issue we will need to address. After all, China, in its current state, cannot simply be overlooked or marginalized. It demands recognition. The question then becomes, what kind of recognition and acknowledgment does it seek? This is a substantial matter that requires our attention.